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Stockbridge Parish Magazine

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Last month I wrote a short piece for Stockbridge Parish magazine which came out today. I have repeated the text here in case it is of use to readers of the magazine.

On the June 23rd we will have the opportunity to make one of the most important votes in our lifetime. Remain or leave, our decision will be fundamental to the future of the United Kingdom and Europe and we are unlikely to get an opportunity to change our minds. However, I think a lot of us don’t feel adequately informed. We know that politicians are campaigning for one side or the other so we can’t trust them not to mislead us and the same is true of the press. Adapting a quote from Andrew Lang: they use facts as a drunk uses a lamppost – for support rather than illumination. And that’s a shame. Decisions as important as this should be based on logic and evidence.

Luckily we live in the age of the internet. Almost anything can be checked and often in a very short time. I do a lot of this. So here are a few reflections on how to use the Internet to get closer to the truth.

Of course the Internet is as full of falsehoods and exaggerations as any other medium. Using Google to search on “Brexit” will give you thousands of blog posts and press stories in no particular order, no way of knowing which to trust, and many of them out of date. Frequently people react to this by turning to sources they know – but this often turns out to mean sources they agree with, which is not the same as impartial! The newspapers in particular, including the broadsheets, are extremely partisan. If you want an impartial summary of the issues and facts a better source is one of the “fact-checking” web sites which stake their reputation on being neutral. “Full Fact” (https://fullfact.org ) is one of the best. It is an independent charity which succeeds in being both authoritative and impartial on a wide range of issues (don’t confuse it with “In Facts” (http://infacts.org/), which is also a good site but openly campaigning for the REMAIN camp). For example, George Osborne said that leaving would cost the UK £4,300 for every household. Full fact explains what this really means and how seriously to take it. If Full Fact does not answer your question then the BBC EU Referendum Reality Check is a good alternative – although some people are concerned that the BBC is dependent on the government to renew its license fee.

If you want to get more detail, or to check what you have read elsewhere, then you can turn to the sources of the data. Many of them are quite easy to use. The Office of National Statistics runs a Neighbourhood Statistics service (http://www.neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk ) which can give you almost any statistic you can imagine – in many cases down the level of the Broughton and Stockbridge ward. Did you know that in 2011 there were 1,393 people living in Test Valley who were born in other EU countries (just over 1% of the population)? The EU web site itself (http://europa.eu) is quite intelligible and easy to use. Of course, it can’t be assumed to be unbiased on Brexit but there are some facts about Europe which are not open to interpretation. For example, contrary to rumour, the EU does publish audited accounts and has done for many years. They can be inspected on the EU web site.

Sometimes you want to know the answer to something quite precise and then the most effective approach is to use a search engine such as Google. At one stage Boris Johnson claimed that “Crossrail tunnels had to be 50 per cent bigger in order to accommodate German trains”. You can search on that phrase and quite rapidly find the truth (I leave it as an exercise for the reader!).

Of course not everyone is comfortable with the internet or has the facilities. If anyone is in this position and would like help finding out more I would be delighted to help – just give me a call on 01264 810562. It is a vital decision and I passionately believe we should make it on good grounds as opposed to anecdotes, myths and personal insinuations. As it happens I think we should REMAIN but don’t take my word for it. The internet is your friend if you know how to use it.

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The Argument from Sovereignty

Most arguments for Brexit quickly fall apart if you inspect the facts. One argument that has some substance is that the EU represents a loss of sovereignty – we are conceding power to an unelected European Commission. This is certainly the one that Boris Johnson likes to plug.

Like so much of the Brexit case, it is based on a woolly, rose-tinted vision that has no foundation in reality.  But first it as well to be clear  that in theory the EU is at least as democratic as the UK Parliament, and arguably more so. Like the UK parliament it comprises two houses one elected with universal suffrage, the other not. The European Parliament is elected every 5 years and every adult in the EU has an equal right to elect their local Member of European Parliament (MEPs).  To this extent it is just as democratic as the House of Commons. The other “house” is the Council of the European Union (not to be confused with the European Council or the Council of Europe which are different!). Unlike the House of Lords (which is partly hereditary and partly appointed) this comprises the relevant ministers of the member nations. So it is indirectly related to elected governments. The European Commission which is sometimes seen as the unelected villain of the piece cannot pass any legislation. .  It is an executive body, like our Civil Service. It is true that all legislation has to be proposed by the commission to provide consistency and depth but this can be done in response to requests from anyone.  Parliament can amend legislation that has been proposed.

There is an active and quite technical debate as to how well this system actually represents the will of the people. There have been several modifications over the years to  make it more responsive so it is not fixed in stone and quite capable of improvement. But it is a democratic system and any claim to the contrary is just wrong. 

Setting that aside – is it unwise for the UK to cede any power to a supranational body whether that body is democratic or not? This is where we need to be realistic.  The Brexit vision seems to be one of a self-reliant UK that is the sole correct place for sovereignty. A government that makes all the decisions that affect us and which we, the British people, elect and hold to account. This a vision of a utopia (or possibly a dystopia) which never actually existed and is becoming further and further detached from reality as the world becomes more and more globalised. Even the concept of the British people is increasingly unclear.  The Scot, the second generation Muslim living in Birmingham, the expatriate living in France and the French professional living in London will all have different ideas of what it is to be a UK citizen. This vision is certainly irrelevant to the current world and probably never made sense.

In reality power is distributed both above and below the national level and is held accountable in many different ways. The preponderance of power still lies with national governments. It is the decisions of the UK parliament that we know about and care about and which affect us most. However, all countries also cede power to supranational bodies – often bodies that are a lot less democratic than the EU  e.g. the Council of Europe, the United Nations, the World Trade Organisation and NATO – to name just a few. It is the price we pay for functioning in the modern highly interconnected global world. These institutions usually work through negotiation between representatives of nations – a  process that is widely accepted.

Why do we need a EU in addition to these other organisations? There all sorts of reasons. Trade is an obvious one. The members of the EU all trade intensively with each other and there are obvious advantages to removing tariffs and standardising on things such as safety regulations and labelling. But there are many others – environmental (pollution and climate change do not recognise national boundaries), foreign policy (it would have been almost impossible to place effective sanctions on Russia over Ukraine without a EU),  even the response to the refugee crisis – while the response  has been very far from ideal it is hard to see how it could have been done better with each country acting for itself.

Perhaps most importantly the members of the EU represent a common set of values: democracy, equal rights, freedom of expression, religious tolerance etc. It is easy to neglect these  until they are challenged (which is happening at the moment). It is these values which allowed the EU to play a major role in helping members of the former Warsaw Pact become modern democracies within the EU as opposed to totalitarian or failed states (as has happened to most ex-Soviet states which did not join the EU).  It is the EU values which can act as a counterbalance to nationalist, intolerant and anti-democratic movements currently taking place throughout the continent.  The early part of the 20th century saw a rise in such movements which took over some national governments . The resulting conflict of values could only be resolved by the most horrendous wars the world has seen. The EU is a repository of broader values and a forum for resolving these conflicts.

Of course the EU has handled many of these challenges rather badly compared to an ideal solution. It needs improving – a great deal. That is a process which has been happening and in which Britain has played a big role (e.g reform of CAP).  The answer is not to head for the exit door. We need a better EU – badly. The alternative is for each country to operate separately.  We saw how that worked out last century. Let’s not go there again.

The Regulation Argument for Brexit

At one time if you asked a Brit what was the biggest problem with the EU the chances are they would say it was excessive regulation and red-tape.  It has a kind of mythic status. People love to complain about stupid regulations – it makes a good story  – to the extent that they sometimes make up regulations that don’t exist e.g. Boris’s teabags and balloons (The Sun of all papers has a rather nice expose of Boris’s statements about regulation). Perhaps most famously the completely false myth that EU regulations on the sale of cabbage run to 26,911 words. In fact the EU has no regulations on the sale of cabbage but there is a UK government regulation of some 23,510 words. Recently the regulation argument has taken a back-seat to the economy, immigration and sovereignty, but it still comes up a lot. It relies on two crucial assumptions. 

Assumption 1: Regulations are a bad thing

Most of us recognise that regulations have a role in safety and protecting the environment. What is less obvious is that  good regulations speed things up and increase efficiency (bad regulations, of course, do the opposite). For example,

a. Financial regulations reduce uncertainty and provide the confidence that savers and borrowers need to sustain a modern economy (remember 2008?).

b. Common safety regulations for cars mean manufacturers need only concern themselves with meeting one set of standards

c. Labelling regulations mean consumers can compare products consistently and more quickly

d. Regulations on parts of goods – even something as simple as a screw size – makes it quicker and easier to repair, modify, and combine different products and increases competition

Assumption 2: There would be less regulation if we left the EU.

The trouble with this is that we have very little idea what would happen if we vote to leave. However, it is hard to think of a route that would dramatically reduce regulation. Most options that are economically acceptable such as joining the EEA require us to accept a large proportion of EU regulations. A lot of the most restrictive  UK regulations such as planning laws are nothing to with the UK. Many EU regulations are standardisation or implementation of regulations that would exist anyway. For example, the data protection directive which standardises data protection laws which already exist in most EU countries. Other EU regulations do not apply to us because we have opt-outs or they are just irrelevant e.g. standards for olive oil production. The OECD has compared our current level of labour and product market regulation to other rich nations. Not only is the UK  among the least regulated of all countries in Western Europe, we “compare favourably” (which presumably means less regulated) with non-EU countries such as America, Australia and Canada. 

Some responses to “Gun Facts” on the UK crime

I have recently been in correspondence with Guy Smith who runs a web site call Gun Facts. I came across the site because it had some rather odd things to say about crime in the UK. From our e-mail exchange I get the impression that Guy is a very pleasant and honest person but unaware of the impression that his web site gives to a casual observer (to my amazement in one e-mail he said the site was neither pro-gun nor anti-gun).  It is a large site with thousands of “Facts” – so I am just concentrating on the “facts” he supplies about guns and crime in the UK.

Before I dive into them a preamble.

All these facts were supplied to debunk the myth:

Britain has strict gun control and thus a low crime rate

I am not aware of anyone who asserts this particular myth. We don’t have a low crime rate. However, many of the “facts” seem aimed at a different proposition:

The handgun acts of 1997 failed to reduce the availability of guns or lower homicide rates.

In fact these acts were only a reaction to Dunblane and were never expected to generally reduce homicide or gun availability (which was already very low).  As it happens the laws supplied a legal basis for some effective police action in the mid-2000s which did reduce the availability of guns and lower homicide rates. See  this brief article. It also happens that crime, including violent crime, peaked in the late 90s – possibly giving the impression that the handgun acts of 1997 caused the peak. Since then both have dropped dramatically.

And now to the “facts”:

The stuff in purple is what Guy wrote – followed by my response in normal text. It is somewhat complicated by Guy’s practice of occasionally stating a fact in the present tense without a date. I initially understood these statements to be intended to be true at the time I read them but I now think that in some cases he meant them to be true at the time of the source which he links to.

Fact: Since gun banning has escalated in the UK, the rate of crime – especially violent crime – has risen.

False – There is no source, and therefore no date, for this so I can only take it as applying to the present day. Both crime and violent crime have fallen according to both the British Crime Survey (BCS) and police reported crime. There was a short period after the handgun ban in 1997 when crime rose according to the reported crime figures (but not BCS). Since then it has dropped. See Office of National Statistics Crime report for Dec 2014..

Fact: Ironically, firearm use in crimes in the UK has doubled in the decade since handguns were banned.

Unproven – firearm use in crimes relies on the recorded crime statistics (BCS doesn’t ask the question). While these had more or less got their act together in 2007 they were a wreck in 1997 so any comparison is highly suspect (violent crime rates appeared to double in 1998/9 simply through a different method of recording). What is true that the recorded crime statistics show a dramatic decline in firearms and handgun use from 2002/3 through to 2013/14 (from 5,549 to 2,130 in the case of handguns and 24,070 to 7,709 in the case of all firearms)

Fact: Britain has the highest rate of violent crime in Europe, more so than the United States or even South Africa. They also have the second highest overall crime rate in the European Union. In 2008, Britain had a violent crime rate nearly five times higher than the United States (2034 vs. 446 per 100,000 population).

Guy’s source is a Daily Mail story written in 2009 about a European Study.

Unproven Using the Daily Mail as a source is not much better than using the National Enquirer. Unfortunately the Daily Mail doesn’t say which reports it based its story on so there is no way of checking without a lot of tedious work. It is also an old story. National comparisons of crime other than homicide – which is rather clear cut – are notoriously difficult. Different countries have different crimes and different ways of recording them and some are very much out of date. The best reference I could easily find was this – written in 2012 but using data from 2006 because some countries are that far behind. The UK certainly doesn’t come out well compared to other OECD countries – although in no case is it the worst in Europe. We do well on homicide but poorly on rape, robbery and assault. But how about compared to the USA? We do better on homicide (much), we are more or less equally bad on rape and robbery, and worse on assault. Make of that what you will.

Fact: 67% of British residents surveyed believed that “As a result of gun and knife crime [rising], the area I live in is not as safe as it was five years ago.”

Probably true – perception of crime is unfortunately frequently wrong.

Fact: U.K. street robberies soared 28% in 2001. Violent crime was up 11%, murders up 4%, and rapes were up 14%.

AND

Fact: This trend continued in the U.K in 2004 with a 10% increase in street crime, 8% increase in muggings, and a 22% increase in robberies.

Highly deceptive. The reference is to an unnamed BBC news report so it is extremely hard to follow up. However, the figures are based on recorded crime which is discussed above.  The BCS figures which tell a different story are omitted. Moreover the figures seem to be carefully selected. E.g. Murders were up in 2002 because the Shipman enquiry concluded that year that Harold Shipman had murdered at least 215 patients between 1975 and 1998. They were all recorded against the 2002 statistics. If you remove these then murders peaked in 2001 at 854 and have declined ever since to 536 in 2013/14. I got bored looking up the other figures. They don’t change the big picture of declining crime.

Fact: In 1919, before it had any gun control, the U.K. had a homicide rate that was 8% of the U.S. rate. By 1986, and after enacting significant gun control, the rate was 9% – practically unchanged.

Irrelevant That’s nearly 100 years ago. We have a world war since then. The countries have changed vastly.

Fact: “… [There is] nothing in the statistics for England and Wales to suggest that either the stricter controls on handguns prior to 1997 or the ban imposed since have controlled access to such firearms by criminals.”

Possibly true preceding a quote by the word “fact” doesn’t make the quote true. This was presumably the opinion of Colin Greenwood in 2003. It would require some evidence to back this up. There is little doubt that things have changed significantly since 2003.

Fact: Comparing crime rates between America and Britain is fundamentally flawed. In America, a gun crime is recorded as a gun crime. In Britain, a crime is only recorded when there is a final disposition (a conviction). All unsolved gun crimes in Britain are not reported as gun crimes, grossly undercounting the amount of gun crime there. 23 To make matters worse, British law enforcement has been exposed for falsifying criminal reports to create falsely lower crime figures, in part to preserve tourism.

True. You can’t compare gun crime – nor can you compare violent crime rates.

Fact: An ongoing parliamentary inquiry in Britain into the growing number of black market weapons has concluded that there are more than three million illegally held firearms in circulation – double the number believed to have been held 10 years ago – and that criminals are more willing than ever to use them. One in three criminals under the age of 25 possesses or has access to a firearm.

Based on a source dated 2000.

AND

Fact: Handgun homicides in England and Wales reached an all-time high in 2000, years after a virtual ban on private handgun ownership. More than 3,000 crimes involving handguns were recorded in 1999-2000, including 42 homicides, 310 cases of attempted murder, 2,561 robberies and 204 burglaries.

AND

Fact: Handguns were used in 3,685 British offenses in 2000 compared with 2,648 in 1997, an increase of 40%. It is interesting to note:

  • Of the 20 areas with the lowest number of legal firearms, 10 had an above average level of “gun crime.”
  • Of the 20 areas with the highest levels of legal guns, only 2 had armed crime levels above the average.

Possibly true. All three of these were about handgun use in 2000. This was shortly after the handgun ban and before the police initiatives in the mid-2000s that drove down illegally held firearms. It takes time for a law to have an effect and it needs to be enforced. Police action during the mid-2000’s dramatically changed the picture.

Fact: Between 1997 and 1999, there were 429 murders in London, the highest two-year figure for more than 10 years – nearly two-thirds of those involved firearms – in a country that has virtually banned private firearm ownership.

False. Wikipedia includes a table of homicides in London from 1990 to 2014 which is based on borough level crime figures.  Guy’s statement is rather confusing. The total homicides for the three years 1997, 98 and 99 come to 495. I can’t make any two years come to 429. These were not outstandingly high compared to the previous 10 years. For example, the total for 90, 91 and 92 was 543. I have no idea about the percentage of firearms.

Fact: Over the last century, the British crime rate was largely unchanged. In the late nineteenth century, the per capita homicide rate in Britain was between 1.0 and 1.5 per 100,000. In the late twentieth century, after a near ban on gun ownership, the homicide rate is around 1.4. This implies that the homicide rate did not vary with either the level of gun control or gun availability.

Partly true. The rates are reasonable (they agree with figures in the International Handbook of Violence – the only source I could find on-line). The third sentence needs careful interpretation. If it is taken to mean that homicide rates did not correlate with gun control or gun availability – that is correct. If it is taken to mean that the figures are evidence that gun control/availability has had no effect on homicide rates then that is unreasonable. You couldn’t possibly read that into the figures without taking notice of all the other factors that affect reported homicide rates. No one who thinks about it would claim that gun control/availability is the only factor affecting homicide rates.

Fact: The U.K. has strict gun control and a rising homicide rate of 1.4 per 100,000. Switzerland has the highest per capita firearm ownership rate on the planet (all males age 20 to 42 are required to keep rifles or pistols at home) and has a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000. To date, there has never been a schoolyard massacre in Switzerland.

Source dated 1999.

Debatable. Although the source was dated 1999 I think the argument holds today (the UK and Swiss murder rates have both  dropped). Switzerland very likely has the highest proportion of households owning a gun as this is required by law. However, it is far from having the most guns per capita. According to the 2007 small arms survey the Swiss have about 45.7 guns per 100 people. The US has 88.8 guns per 100 people. Nevertheless it is true that gun ownership in Switzerland is much higher than in the UK (6.2 per 100 people). However, this is a misleading. Switzerland has high gun ownership but pretty strict gun control. For example, it is illegal to carry a loaded firearm in public without special permission and there are rules on carrying any firearm loaded or not.

Fact: “… the scale of gun crime in the capital [London] has forced senior officers to set up a specialist unit to deal with … shootings.”

Source dated: 2001 

True.  England has a low tolerance of gun crime. The unit was effective, reducing gun homicide, homicide and gun availability in the capital. Gun control is not just laws.

Some Gun Control Maths

(updated with another example 4/10/15)

For some reason I am fascinated by the debate over US gun control.  I have the good fortune to live in a country where it isn’t an issue but it I still find myself reading about it extensively. I think it is partly the role that statistics plays in the argument. I really liked this article in Slate which pointed out how the statistics are used to bolster existing positions and not to settle things. Also the way the issue acts as a touchstone of the division between red and blue USA.  

Nevertheless that are a few bits of basic maths that occurred to me recently that do seem relevant (even if they bolster my prejudices).

Do Large US Cities Account for the US High Homicide Rate?

There is myth going around that if you take out the homicides from a few (usually four) large cities that

(a ) are liberal controlled

(b ) have relatively strong gun laws

then the rate for the rest of the USA is not much different than most Western European countries. This is clearly wrong. The named cities vary, but if you take the four largest: New York, Los Angeles, Chicago and Houston then the total population is about 17 million and there were a total of 1233 homicides in those 4 cities in 2014. The population of the USA is 320 million and there were about 14,000 murders in 2014. So the rate including the largest cities is: 14,000/320,000,000 = 4.4 per 100,000. The rate excluding the largest cities is 4.2 per 100,000. It really doesn’t matter which four cities you choose, or if you choose 5 or 6, the numbers aren’t nearly big enough to have a noticeable effect on the national rate.

 

Mental Health

Those who argue against gun control often argue that the way to tackle gun violence is through a better mental health strategy.  They point to the significant proportion of mass killers who have some kind of mental health issue. These are of course a small proportion of all homicides (and there is no evidence that killers in general are more likely to be mentally ill than average) but it is still really important to try and prevent them.  This study suggests about a quarter of mass murderers have some kind of psychiatric history – a much larger proportion are unusual in being a bit of a loner or similar but have no diagnosed mental illness. I am not clear what kind of mental health strategy is being proposed (politicians tend to stick on phrases like “we need to look at mental health”) but presumably it involves identifying those who have mental health issues, giving some kind of treatment, and (as mental health treatment is lengthy and unreliable) limiting them in some way – at a minimum limiting their access to guns or more drastically their freedom in general. Now here’s the rub – over 43 million US adults suffer from some kind of mental illness (this does not include substance abuse such as drugs and alcohol) and 10 million of those suffer from serious mental illness. Furthermore it is extremely hard to tell which of those 10-40 million might be violent (even though very few of them will be). So what is the strategy?   Prevent between 10-40 million people having access to guns most of whom will never do anything violent – even though this would still let about 75% of mass murders get access? How could this be done without introducing some kind of gun control?  I am all for better treatment for the mentally ill – but don’t be fooled into thinking this is going to do anything to reduce homicides unless you introduce gun control for everyone.

Yes every child should have the opportunity to learn a musical instrument–but how, where and when?

The concert pianist James Rhodes is conducting a campaign to get the UK government to give every child the opportunity to learn a musical instrument. He is presenting a series of programmes on C4 where he starts a school orchestra in primary school which is on special needs (i.e. doing really badly). He has started an on-line petition. And I have no doubt there is/will be a lot of activity as well. The result is a sort of combination of Jamie Oliver on school dinners and Gareth Malone on school choirs. (The C4 series is made by Jamie Oliver’s production company).

I really, really like the idea and have signed the petition but am also quite concerned it may all back fire. Rhodes is quite candid that all he is doing is demanding the government provide the opportunity. The details of how to do it are “for the policymakers”.

 

This is a complex problem and experts agree it’s about more than just money. We need action: whether it’s providing teachers with proper music training or asking Ofsted to pay specific attention to music in their inspections or even a guarantee of funding until the end of the National Plan. But the details of how to achieve it are for the policymakers. What I’m asking for is something simple

Nevertheless a lot of energy and enthusiasm without thinking about the implementation could backfire, kill this campaign and endanger similar campaigns for reforms in education. If it ends up with mouldering heaps of unused instruments cluttering up schools and headteachers being harassed to do the impossible, then it will be a backward step not a forward one.

Giving every child the opportunity to learn an instrument would be something unprecedented in UK education. It may that there is even less emphasis on music education now than in recent years – but it has never been the case that the majority of  schools offered a serious opportunity to all children.  In most schools music education has always been of secondary status to mainline subjects such as maths, science, English, history and languages. I went to seven primary schools (my father was in the air force and we travelled a great deal) and an academically excellent grammar school during the 50s and 60s. I was never even shown a musical instrument. My children fared little better when they went to reputable state schools in middle class Hampshire in the 90s. So this is a new venture and we don’t know how to do it.

Some things to bear in mind.

Music is not alone in its case for more attention/funding in schools. Sports, drama, cooking, citizenship, home economics – the list of topics that the education system is asked to support is seemingly endless. Yes music brings immense benefits to those that learn it. So do many of these others.

The methods used by Rhodes in the C4 programme were not scalable to schools as a whole or sustainable over an extended time. They were great for getting attention and rather moving – but required his  time, energy, and very rare skills; many volunteers with a musical background; and a one-off campaign to obtain gifts of instruments. It also appeared to disrupt the rest of the school quite extensively -  we heard that other teachers lessons were badly affected during music lessons because of the noise but never heard how this was resolved.

Offering children the opportunity to learn an instrument is a lot harder than offering them decent school dinners. It needs a great deal of the time and commitment from the child and teacher. It needs suitable space and equipment. Ideally is needs opportunities to perform to an audience. There is no reason why changing school dinners should disrupt the rest of the school’s activities in  significant way. There is good reason to think that the opportunity to learn an instrument will effect every other aspect of the school.

But I think the thing that concerns me most is that the campaign positions this as a problem to be solved by schools.  It doesn’t matter what goes on in schools if the child is not practicing at home. On the other hand if the parents are supportive and the child is practicing at home then it probably doesn’t require much of the schools. In the first programme Rhodes goes to visit the family of a child who is apparently not practising. It turns out most of her time is consumed by gadgets – i-phone, tablets and playstation. He successfully persuades her parents to encourage her to spend less time on gadgets and more on practice. But this is not going to happen for every family in the land. We have to look beyond the formal education system if this is to work.

 

“I really seriously do not understand how anyone can believe materialism.”

Barry Arrington has a post on UD If My Eyes Are a Window, Is There Anyone Looking Out? which contains some fairly standard arguments for dualism.  What caught my eye was the comments. Here is a sample:

How do you argue against someone who does not see the obvious self-contradiction in the statements –

“I choose to believe in materialism”. “I choose not to believe in free will.”

To believe these statements takes denial of basic logic.

I think some people just like to believe and say counterintuitive things because they think it sets them apart from the average Joe. Believing that I am just a machine has got to be the MOST counterintuitive thing I could possibly believe. It’s possible that you are just a machine, I can’t be sure about that, but I’m sure I’m not and, and as you say, any theory that provides the wrong answer to this question will not get serious consideration from my (average) mind.

This subject goes to the heart of the questions I’ve been puzzling on recently and has resulted in the few comments I’ve made here at UD.
It starts with the question, “Why don’t people accept sound arguments?”
The answer appears to be that their worldview will not allow it.

It is an ironical that comments like this appear just when Denyse is making post after post about how evolutionists/materialists/the liberal elite are suppressing intellectual freedom.  This group that cannot understand the materialist case so they dismiss materialists as at best deluding themselves and possibly being deliberately deceptive because they want to show off. It amounts to “they are obviously wrong so the only interesting question is why do they say these things”. This is not a good basis for debate. In Barry’s case this has extended to banning arguments he believes to be “obviously” wrong from his debates (there are some UD regulars who do respect opposing views – most notably vj torley). What I cannot work out is how to engage with this mind set or if there is any point in trying to.

There are of course many responses to all the points that Barry makes. They have been covered many times both in the blogosphere and serious writing and there seems little point in repeating them here. Interestingly in one comment Billmaz raises some of these objections. He/she appears to be an IDist acting as Devil’s Advocate and shows a real intellectual interest in seeing both points of view so can hardly be dismissed as deluding him/herself.  This will presumably lower the emotional baggage that gets in the way of any serious debate. It will be interesting to see to what extent Barry and the commenters engage with what Billmaz writes – after all as far as they are concerned he/she is obviously wrong.